The Guardian's Ghaith Abdul-Ahad and Frontline's Jamie Doran chatted about their experience in one of the most dangerous al-Qaida strongholds
Guardian reporter Ghaith Abdul-Ahad is no stranger to risky reporting assignments. He's been embedded with insurgents in Iraq, detained by the Taliban, and, in 2011, was captured by the Libyan army. But even with that track record, infiltrating al-Qaida in Yemen presented new challenges — and extraordinary risks.
To reach his contact in remote southwest Yemen, Ghaith and his director Safa al-Ahmad took a treacherous route through the no-man's land between the territory held by the Yemeni army and that held by al-Qaida. From there, risking their lives at every turn, they filmed Frontline's Al Qaeda in Yemen a unique, first-person record of al-Qaida's growing influence in the region.
So how did they do it? How close were they to being caught? What role did the camera play? What were the al-Qaida fighters like, day to day? What's al-Qaida's strategy for winning influence over the population — and how well is it working on the ground?
Abdul-Ahad and Frontline producer, Jamie Doran, discussed these questions and more on Wednesday in a live chat.They were joined by guest questioner Amy Davidson, a senior editor at The New Yorker. She last worked with Frontline to host a chat with Ali Soufan as part of the film The Interrogator.
If you missed it, not to worry. Here's the transcript:
A lot of viewers will wonder, I think, about how you managed your security. Ghaith, you've been in Iraq and Somalia, you were detained in Libya—how did this trip compare in terms of the risks you were taking? – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: through tribal connections
Jamie Doran: To be fair, it's always best not to give away operational data. Best to be general
To ask in very general terms then—not how you got in, but how you decided what risks were worth it. When does a story rise to the level of being something you might die for? – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Tribes in yemen are stronger than those in Iraq or in somalia and their authority are have more weight. I meant to say that the authority of the tribal elders are more prominent
Jamie Doran: We've both taken risks in many countries over the years. I think journalism requires risks, to get at the truth. They were going to hang me in Burma back in 1990, shoot me in Panama and God knows what in Afghanistan many times. Difficult to weigh it up
Glad that you're still here! I'm not sure most people are familiar with Ansar al-Sharia--could you tell us more about the group and its allegiances? – Amy Davidson
Jamie Doran: Ansar al-Sharia is the public face. AQAP saw this as more acceptable, able to raise foot soldiers beyond the hard core
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Al Qaeda has a tainted name in the middle east because of iraq. after taking over Jaar they came up with the name of the ansar, when i first went to yemen i was thinking of the relationship between the two groups more like the Taliban and the qaeda in pakistan a foreign body and a local surrogate but when i arrived there and found that the people refer to ansar as qaeda and that the ansar themselves refer to their organization as qaeda the picture became more clear.
Hi, do you think that a large part of Yemen's population is in favour Al-Qaida? How is Al-Qaida perceived by Yemenis? – Comment From Hakim
Jamie Doran: The vast majority in the south oppose the north's occupation to such a degree that, especially the young, AQAp can be seen as an option. The south wants independence. Bottom line. You have to understand that, whatever the attacks from the ground and the air, AQAP is almost preferable to rule from the north
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Think of the ansar as the foot soldiers of the qaeda, and as a PR exercise.
Even though they are also outsiders? How do Yemenis feel about foreign Al Qaeda figures? I believe you saw a number of non-Yemenis in the town you visited. – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: the Qeada has moved from their hide outs in the mountains to controlling the towns by creating the term ansar they can portray themselves as separate "legitimate" local organization
What, as the filmmakers , do you think the most important impact of the film should be for an american audience; the straight facts reported, the visceral images of people actually living with these almost unthinkable pressures, or something else? – Comment From Edward Foster
Jamie Doran: I think that, too often, an American audience perceives itself to be the world audience. That's not the case. AQAP is a threat to all
In your opinion, what non-military actions can the government of Yemen or any nation that has to deal with al-Qaeda in its population take to combat them? – Comment From Dan M.
Jamie Doran: The government of Yemen is terribly disunited. It's important to understand that the Yemeni army can never defeat Al Qaeda. Nor can the US. Only the tribes of Yemen can do that
There was a piece in the Washington Post today on how drones strikes in Yemen are causing people to turn against the United States, and toward Al Qaeda. DId you find the same thing? – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: they hate the outsiders, and most of all the northerners (local yemenis from the north) but unlike iraq and afghanistan majority of aqap are yemenis from the south
Jamie Doran: Unfortunately yes. The drone strikes alienate so many, even though they may succeed with a few senior members of AQAP
My question: Where are all the women in this society? Is there any hope that the Yemeni women may have any possible hope for influencing their world, or is this completely impossible? – Comment From Guest
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Important thing to note that during socialist rule in south yemen many of the islamists went to fight in afghanistan and then in 1994 they -arab afghans- were used by gov in north to fight separatists so they are more or less indigenous to the south of yemen
Jamie Doran: Yemen is number 1 in the world for it's poor treatment of women. It's hardly going to get better under Al Qaeda. But this is no excuse for the Sana'a government, which is almost as bad
Greetings to all, Can you can conceive Al-Qaeda taking control of Yemen? – Comment From Chsrlie
Jamie Doran: Yemen is so disunited that any group can take advantage. AQAP will never control the entire country, but the south is another matter
Amy Davidson: Would love to follow up on the great question about women. I was also curious about the women in the town you visited. What are their lives like under Al Qaeda control? Do they have a voice?
Jamie Doran: The Sana'a government was so corrupt under Ali Saleh that few people have any real faith in the new group. Pres Hadi is a nice fellow, but perceived to be a tool of the US
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Amy, like afghanistan taliban or qaeda authority on women not that different from local tribal codes. I mean its culture that really oppresses the women.
Jamie Doran: I spoke to women who had fleed Al Qaeda. I also spoke to more women who had fleed the drones and Yemeni govt attacks
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: The poor director had to wear a shroud and burqaa for weeks while we filmed in yemen and not only in qaeda land but almost everywhere
Jamie Doran: The culture of the country from long before AQAP is anti-women
You visited Azzan, the home of Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen and Al Qaeda propagandist who was killed by a drone strike. What did the people you spoke to feel about his death? How important was he in Yemen? – Amy Davidson
Jamie Doran: I spoke with the new Minister for Human Rights in Sana'a. She, too, despaired that women were so badly treated. Truth is: women had a say in the old socialist south and that is now disappearing across the country
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: I have to point out that she is a female in a way she was the real hero of this project imagine convincing qaeda guys to let a woman film them
Jamie Doran: This is very true. AQ see it almost as an insult even to speak to females. Safa was immensely brave
How were you able to gain enough trust from the al-qaeda militants to be accepted to the camp? – Cmackaing on Reddit
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: I know me convincing jihadis is normal.... a woman is something else they didnt know how to deal with her.... when we were served lunch they put her food in separate room and she wasn't allowed to eat with us... like she had rabies or something
Jamie Doran: The core conflict is almost impossible to define. There are so many rival factions, tribes and financial interests that it is easily the most difficult country I have visisted in an attempt to understand. Little wonder others can take advantage of the chaos
I am curious about Awlaki—such a big part of the debate about the drone wars here. Do we overestimate him? – Amy Davidson
Jamie Doran:The truth is that even Osama didn't rate Al Awlaki very highly. He appeared more important in the western media than he was to AQAP
Has the rebranding worked in attracting more moderate recruits or changing perceptions? – Comment From Edward Foster
Jamie Doran: Definitely. The hard core was around several hundred; you can now say it runs into the lower thousands. What's interesting is that the US and Yemeni govts claim there are only several hundred. Look at the figures of claimed hits since January this year and you'll see several hundred dead already. Figures don't add up.
Is it in the US Govt's interest to support the SOUTH to independence and mobilize the tribesmen there to root out AQAP? Did you see any evidence of US support for these groups? – Comment From Mark
Jamie Doran: Logically yes, but the US is seen as such a strong supporter for the govt in the north that most people oppose the idea of American intervention on any scale
How aware is AQAP about its appearance in the Western media? Would they have followed the big Times story on kill lists? – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Amy, i agree with Jamie Awlaki was not that significant and then he became prominent figure in AQAP partly because of the americans.... another interesting thing most of the tribesmen refer to him as a very polite and soft spoken guy who went slightly over the top so even in south of yemen people still dont take him seriously he is not zwahiri
Jamie Doran: AQAP watches the western media very seriously. They won't have missed the kill lists. The hits in the mountains have been impressive, no doubt, but 'collateral damage' is only increasing support for AQAP. I have also found the justifications for killing US citizens slightly grey ion the area of international and even US law.
If AQAP watches western media closely, how will they react to your story? And what will be the consequences for those who helped you get it? – Comment From Mort
Jamie Doran: Difficult to answer that, as we don't wish even to give a hint of who helped us. There's no question that a dvd of our film, just like our films in Afghanistan and elsewhere, will make its way to Yemen. How will they react - I imagine they're too busy fighting the battles taking place at this moment.
Reading what you both have to say about civilian deaths and the way Awlaki's role was overplayed, I wonder if you came away thinking that America is working against its own interests in Yemen. – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: one very important thing i have to say here that those Jihadis are different from the ones i have met in iraq somalia...etc they are post arab spring jihadis they talk about the revolutions all the time and sometimes you can close your eyes and think that they are sitting in a cafe in tunis.
Jamie Doran: As I said at the beginning - AQAP will not be defeated by military means - it takes the tribes on the ground to turn against them. There are groups within Saudi Arabia which support the undermining of the yemeni regime at any cost.
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: I dont know if the saudis are to blame here they could be anywhere... qatar UAE... even here in london i actually have no proof of the financing.
Do the people in Yemen know much about Mitt Romney—or care? – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Who is Romney? I mean no one knows him... people there are not really focused ion US politics.
Jamie Doran: Not entirely sure they are fully aware of US politics. Those in the war zones really only care about what might drop on their heads.
Ghaith, explain more of what you mean by post-Arab Spring jihadis? – Comment From Raleigh
Jamie, you say tribes are the answer to defeating AQAP in Yemen, but what about the tribesmen who are part of AQAP. Do those cross-links make this more difficult? – Comment From NYC
Jamie Doran: The tribes are key, as I've said. Most of them have no time for AQAP but are more greatly opposed to the northern government. No tribes per se, are with AQAP - but the US must not alienate them and push them into their hands.
Good question about the Arab Spring! What remains of it in Yemen? Would love to hear more about that. – Amy Davidson
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Raleigh they are trying to claim the arab revolutions like other islamists parties they are trying to portray themselves as the only people who fought the decadent and corrupt rulers
Jamie Doran: Currently, the US is concentrating its efforts on defeating AQAP. It ignores tribal needs at its peril. Frankly, I don't think anyone in Wasington is fully aware of their importance.
And yet we might assume that people in Yemen are following the U.S. Presidential election—always good to be reminded that the entire world does not share our obsessions! What does "America" mean to them now? – Amy Davidson
Jamie Doran: Money to the north and, increasingly, an enemy to the south. The southerners believe they are the forgotten people - that's where Al Qaeda will grow. People across the country face starvation - 44% according to some figures. The US should consider more the effect it could have ploughing money into this humanitarian crisis. Yes, they contribute. But, if Yemen is as important strategically as Washington claims, then divert even more money to the people. Hearts and minds goes both ways
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: For a while the jihadis were confused when it came to the arab spring... it took them sometime to come up with a strategy... that we -jihadis- were the the first revolutionaries we suffered in the cells of the regime we fought against it .... and now that some revolutions have taken a sectarian twist ... they found an opportunity
Since we're nearing the end, I'll try for something hopeful: Did you see any cause for optimism on your visit? Any glimmer of a way through? – Amy Davidson
Jamie Doran: Very little hope. President Hadi has given himself 2 years to sort things - it will take 2 decades. What we have missed in this conversation is that, being so obsessed with AQAp, we've forgotten the violent rivalries in Sana'a itself. Those must be tackled even before AQAP.
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: yes... in Lawder...were tribesmen defeated al qaeda those were not like the sahwas of iraq paid by the US but villagers who decided that they dont want any foreigner entering their town be it northern army qaeda or american
Ghaith, Did you get any sense AQAP is sophisticated enough to coordinate more attacks against US on US soil? – Comment From Christopher Roche
Jamie Doran: The worst thing, in many ways, is to push AQAP back into the mountains. That's where any plots will be hatched
Jamie Doran: This is a very secretive organisation and it's impossible to say.
Ghaith Abdul-Ahad: Roche, i dont know ... but i know its not an organization its an ideology that keeps adapting and only way to defeat it is not through military action but when locals realize that it is actually harming their their lives and their faith.... military actions make them look like heros fighting a big empire